Singles and Bearings: emails from the BritIron list, March 2006 --------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Forster" To: "Doug" ; Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 7:19 AM Subject: Re: Singles and bearings > Hi Doug, > > I've done a number of bigends for B50, RE Fury, and Velo, and they're pretty simple. I use all NOS bits for the B50 and they require no sizing or fitting as they assemble to a noticeable loose fit and survive forever, subject to clean oil. These engines use a caged roller bearing from INA and crankpin and outer race supplied by BSA. > The rather massive published lore for the Velos states that a bigend is correctly fitted if the rollers (3/16" diameter X 9/16" length) and alloy cage can be just pushed around the crankpin (fixed in one flywheel) with a probe while holding the rod immoveable. Velocette sold oversized rollers (+.0001", etc) for installation by select fit in worn crankpin and outer race conditions, stating only that the races must be "free of visible blemish" or some such comment. I've done a number of such repairs over the years with never a failure. I take the bits to a machine shop for final sizing of the outer race on their Sunnen Pin Hone. > I've replaced a number of original RE bigends with the Alpha roller conversions using the same fitting procedure as with Velo, and the bearings work well with never a failure. The RE design is very poor and the fit of the crankpin in the flywheels is insecure, but the roller bearing replacement seems to live forever. The Alpha bearing assembly appears to be a direct copy of the Velo bearing. > > Cheers, Frank Forster > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug" To: > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 2:53 AM > Subject: Singles and bearings > > >> time to make another parts order. Lindas 47 Norton ES2 is coming together >> and while we have collected some of the parts.. time to order the last of the needed items to finish the engine. >> >> I got the main bearings already but still need the outboard drive side bearing,,thats availible no problem from Norvil. Looks to be an obscure odd size but if anyone knows if i can source it locally from a bearing shop advise me and ill start the search otherwise ill just order it. I looked it up and didnt see it in a local bearing catalog so if theres a cross over number that might be helpful that would be a help >> >> Now for the bottom end i did a zyglo and mag particle check and the crank looks good with only one minor defect i was able to blend out. I used to work as an NDT inspector and still have a liquid penetrant kit..and black light. Used a local shops equipment to check with mag particle. >> >> (Note..for you DIY types there are easily sourced 3 pack kits to do this yourself but you do need to have an idea what you are looking at as its not just cracks you are looking for, I could post a basic how too for an intro if theres interest..but for most people just farm it out to a well qualified expert..however many shops claim to do this but on closer inspection many do not even have the basic equipment so im guessing they arent really checking. I can describe what to look for if any interest.) >> >> So,, next step is one im not as familiar with.. Crank Roller main bearing >> on these singles. For the ES2 it uses a VERY simple steel flywheel and a steel rod. FOr the 47 we are just using stock stuff since it wont be stressed as much as my plans for the 62 Poor mans manx ES2 engine. But i noticed Norvil DOES list the Rod roller bearing..maybe someone can educate me on that. It seems the tolerances between the roller and the steel crank pin is pretty lax,,looks that way in the specs i could find. Not much out there from a perusual of the old time manuals i was able to source. But if anyone has any suggestions or alternative sources of bearing specs for these id be grateful, >> >> The manual is very vague other than says look for play,or send to works for >> rejuventation,(my, isn't that helpful!) In addition i see a lot of references to "Alpha bearings" also saw a listing on satans swap meet for a NOS alpha bearing and crank pin assy for a BSA. >> >> 1) Is alpha the primary source for these? 2) Or is the Alpha bearing >> considered a good upgrade? 3) Is there other sources for a ES2 bottom end >> connecting rod roller bearing someone can suggest? (common industrial cross over application?) >> 4) Wouldnt it seem a normal course of action to replace the roller bearing and the crank pin it rides on as one unit? Thats the basic rule of bearings after all...you ALWAYS replace a bearing and its race or bearing surface as a matched pair. It is NOT immediatley clear in the Norvil catalog if that is the case please clarify >> >> In addition i could find valve timing specs and timing to piston position however.. >> I havent been able to find any camshaft specs for the Norton singles. >> >> What i need is total lift, and duration for both intake and exhaust.. also method of measurement. ie; measured at 50 thou or 20 thou opening..or Gross. >> >> I imagine the models in those early years up to 1950 had fairly standard >> cam profiles so its possible there might be other applications or literature that has these specs. Something more than if it has a lump or a hump it must be okay.. If anyone has a old set of knackered cams id be very interested in them for a set of cores for alternative cam profiles, The pushrod performance website states they copied Goldstar cam profiles for a sizable upgrade however theres other issues to address... >> >> any help is appreciated...Doug >> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Schmidt" To: "Doug" Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 7:52 AM Subject: Re: Singles and bearings > BEARINGS: > Big end bearings ( i.e. Alpha etc) are sold as sets with crankpin as you > surmised. Quite expensive at over £100.00 from Norvil or RGM. BCS also lists > them: http://www.britcycle.com/Products/423/423001.htm > > Alpha home page: http://www.alpha-bearings.com/ > They list the main and big end bearings: > http://www.alpha-bearings.com/Big%20end%20Catalogue/Norton-600.htm > > CAMS: > I have numerous notes, photos and manual scans from my cam timing for a '47 > model 18 (same engine as ES2 but rigid not plunger frame). These are PDF and > JPG files. If you reply back that you wish to receive attachments, I'll > forward them to you. > > Dave Schmidt > Philadelphia > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 5:53 AM > Subject: Singles and bearings > > >> time to make another parts order. Lindas 47 Norton ES2 is coming together >> and while we have collected some of the parts.. time to order the last of >> the needed items to finish the engine. >> >> I got the main bearings already but still need the outboard drive side >> bearing,,thats availible no problem from Norvil. Looks to be an obscure odd >> size but if anyone knows if i can source it locally from a bearing shop >> advise me and ill start the search otherwise ill just order it. I looked it >> up and didnt see it in a local bearing catalog so if theres a cross over >> number that might be helpful that would be a help >> > >> So,, next step is one im not as familiar with.. Crank Roller main bearing >> on these singles. For the ES2 it uses a VERY simple steel flywheel and a >> steel rod. FOr the 47 we are just using stock stuff since it wont be >> stressed as much as my plans for the 62 Poor mans manx ES2 engine. But i >> noticed Norvil DOES list the Rod roller bearing..maybe someone can educate >> me on that. It seems the tolerances between the roller and the steel crank >> pin is pretty lax,,looks that way in the specs i could find. Not much out >> there from a perusual of the old time manuals i was able to source. But if >> anyone has any suggestions or alternative sources of bearing specs for >> these id be grateful, >> >> The manual is very vague other than says look for play,or send to works for >> rejuventation,(my, isn't that helpful!) In addition i see a lot of >> references to "Alpha bearings" also saw a listing on satans swap meet for a >> NOS alpha bearing and crank pin assy for a BSA. >> >> 1) Is alpha the primary source for these? >> 2) Or is the Alpha bearing considered a good upgrade? >> 3) Is there other sources for a ES2 bottom end connecting rod roller bearing >> someone can suggest? (common industrial cross over application?) >> 4) Wouldnt it seem a normal course of action to replace the roller bearing >> and the crank pin it rides on as one unit? Thats the basic rule of bearings >> after all...you ALWAYS replace a bearing and its race or bearing surface as >> a matched pair. It is NOT immediatley clear in the Norvil catalog if that is >> the case please clarify >> >> In addition i could find valve timing specs and timing to piston position >> however.. >> I havent been able to find any camshaft specs for the Norton singles. >> >> What i need is total lift, and duration for both intake and exhaust.. also >> method of measurement. ie; measured at 50 thou or 20 thou opening..or >> Gross. >> >> I imagine the models in those early years up to 1950 had fairly standard cam >> profiles so its possible there might be other applications or literature >> that has these specs. Something more than if it has a lump or a hump >> it must be okay.. If anyone has a old set of knackered cams id be very >> interested in them for a set of cores for alternative cam profiles, The >> pushrod performance website states they copied Goldstar cam profiles for a >> sizable upgrade however theres other issues to address... >> >> any help is appreciated...Doug >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "allan johnson" To: "'A list for enthusiasts of British Motorcycles'" Cc: "'Doug'" Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 4:53 PM Subject: RE: Singles and bearings > Doug LMcGuire@CCWEBSTER.NET wrote: > Subject: Singles and bearings > > > position > however.. > I havent been able to find any camshaft specs for the Norton singles. > What i need is total lift, and duration for both intake and exhaust.. > also > method of measurement. ie; measured at 50 thou or 20 thou opening..or > Gross. > any help is appreciated...Doug> > > Dear Brit-Iron and Doug, > > Cam timing on the 16H, 18, ES2 and 500T is given in the early 50s as > 30,73,73,30. In 1957 it was given as 30,75,78,35 for the ES2, 19S > (596cc) and model 50 (348 cc). The sidevalve (16H) cams are a different > part number than the 18 and ES2 cams. No different cams were listed for > the 500T. > > According to Joe Craig's wartime IAE paper "Progress in motorcycle > engines" the lift on the 16H cam was 0.269" on the inlet and 0.272" on > the exhaust. Duration on the inlet was about 270 degrees and about 260 > degrees on the exhaust. This sv engine would have the rocker cam > followers like your '47 engine. 1948 and later Norton 18, ES@ and all > 500T used the flat-based offset tappets. > > The lift on the cams on my 500T are 0.298" on the exhaust and 0.292" on > the inlet - measured from the base circle of the cam. Cams are stamped > "770" on each cam and "K" on the inside of the camwheel which is keyed > to the cam but with only one keyway. The '48 onward camgears and > crankshaft pinion are marked for a single timing set-up. Earlier > (pre-48) apparently have no timing marks on the gears but there are 3 > keyways on the mainshaft pinion. Since a single tooth on the cam pinion > is 9 degrees, the three keyways would allow a 3 degree adjustment of > each cam. > > Measurement of cam timing is normally with tappets at .020" but running > clearances are listed as zero measured when cold. (although the 500T is > given as .010" inlet and .020" exhaust - go figure.) > > Al Johnson > > > > > >